Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:02 Hello, and welcome again to our revenue radio podcast, powered by Kassouf and Kassouf healthcare solutions, where we enhance the business of medicine. I'm Jeff dance. I'm the executive director at Kassouf healthcare solutions today. Uh, we welcome Phillip Langston. Phillip is the director at assured partners and insurance, uh, brokerage and, uh, uh, advocate, uh, here in the healthcare space. Uh, it's good to have you Philip, and, uh, you and I have known each other for quite a while, quite
Speaker 1 00:00:37 Quite a while we've journey. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:00:39 Yeah. We've seen each other from the, uh, provider side all the way to the vendor side and, uh, it's absolutely to have you here and you're gonna bring great, um, insight and perspective on what, uh, what's going
Speaker 1 00:00:51 On. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to be here and, uh, you know, kind of share some things that I've seen firsthand and, and some of the, uh, opportunities that we get to partner with today. Yeah. Uh, and, and kind of building on, uh, you know, our history as in, in, in the field, as I say. Right. So, you know, giving us a little bit of different perspective on conquering the world that changes before us.
Speaker 0 00:01:13 So, well, the, the, uh, the space that you're in currently, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, obviously is on the, what I would call the vendor side. If you're on the practice manager side, tell us a little bit about how you approach that. Now you've seen that you've got 20 plus years mm-hmm <affirmative> of experience in healthcare, you approach a practice, you approach a potential client. Uh, what's the value that you can bring, uh, again, seeing it from both sides now.
Speaker 1 00:01:38 Yeah, a absolutely. Um, you know, I, I, I joke all the time that, you know, I'm a recovering practice manager, you know, from that standpoint. So, um, but I think you, once you kind of are in that environment, uh, a little bit, you never really take your, take your hat off, you know, from that you always sort of see the world through that lens. And, uh, again, that's the way I, I try to, um, bring, you know, just different, uh, viewpoints and different solutions that we have to offer, um, to the, to the medical industry. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, in, in all ti all kinds of different clients, physician practices, uh, you know, facilities, um, other ancillary providers, um, even in, into the skilled nursing side as well. So we're doing a lot of that work as well, but, um, you know, basically, so what, what I get to do now is, is, uh, help healthcare organizations maximize their investment in their insurance program.
Speaker 1 00:02:26 Yeah. Great. And so, you know, insurance for a lot of folks is a burden, something you don't wanna deal with. It's a commodity. And I try to preach the gospel that it's none of those things. Yeah. <laugh> but it's one of those things that you wanna make sure that, you know, you have already chartered a course before the shipwreck happens. And so you have an opportunity to kind of, uh, you know, kind of craft that solution ahead of time and, uh, you know, surround yourself with resources that are gonna help you be able to sustain, you know, that business in whatever headwinds that you do face and no, no, we'll get into several those different areas that we're seeing. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:03:04 Today. So assured partners, mm-hmm, <affirmative> give us a little background on yeah. Where you're located, how you're, I know you're here in Birmingham, but, uh, a little more about your company.
Speaker 1 00:03:12 Sure. So, uh, so Birmingham is just a, a, a small piece of the overall assured partners puzzle from a national perspective. Um, we've grown very quickly, uh, our, our organization's about 10 or 11 years old. And in that time we've ascended to the fifth largest, uh, PNC brokerage firm in the country. Um, we're about a $2 billion organization, top line revenue. Um, so, uh, I get to run in a very deep channel, but at the same time, I'm still kind of the guy down at the end of the block, you know, right. And wanna have that perspective. And so that's kind of the way our organization is constructed is where we've aligned a lot of successful independent agencies all across the country in, in a lot of different areas, not just healthcare, but, um, it's allowed us to specialize in a lot of those areas. And so, you know, for me, that's the, the healthcare world is the world that I know, and that I get to, uh, play in on a daily basis. And again, bring, bring a little bit of a different viewpoint, uh, and some anticipation of some of the issues that are, that are happening and impacting folks on frontline there.
Speaker 0 00:04:13 Right. Good. In this day and age, you know, we've got a lot of, uh, world events that are happening out there. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> cyber threats are commonplace, right. Healthcare, um, medical records, one it's big top. Yeah. It's one of the top, uh, priced black market assets and, uh, products out there, if you will. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I hate to say it that well, but, or that way, um, what is it that a physician owner practice owner, um, practice manager really needs to know about their cyber coverage? Sure. How do you even go about getting that
Speaker 1 00:04:52 Stuff? Yeah, exactly. Well, there's a, there's a, um, a proliferation in the market right now, how you can get it. Um, it just depends on what you're buying, right. So, I mean, you can, you know, buy the, uh, you know, the budget version or you can go for the Cadillac, you know? Right. And truth is what, what you're really gonna need lies somewhere in, in between those two extremes. Right. So, um, you know, the, the, the cyber piece is something that, um, there's not a week that goes by that I'm not having some kind of cyber conversation. Um, and you know, over the last year, I would tell you that there's a lot more discussion in terms of the claim activity that's there. Uh, and it hasn't been just a, we need to prepare for that day that day's here. Yeah. And so, um, from a, from a cyber standpoint, uh, like you mentioned, you know, healthcare is a, is a number one target, you know, you've got everything contained in your medical records that can make a, uh, a cyber hacker, you know, a very wealthy person, uh, in a very short amount of time.
Speaker 1 00:05:52 And so it, it, it's, there's, there's a lot of things you can do to play on the defensive side. Um, obviously your it and your security plays a big part in that. Uh, so, you know, you've gotta have your resources, uh, well positioned from that standpoint, but from a coverage standpoint, the other thing that we're seeing is, is this is something that's here to stay. You know, um, when I was, I mean, I remember, uh, you know, kind of when I was a purchaser of insurance coverages for medical practices, uh, Hey, we've got this cyber offering too. Would you be interested in that? I was like, uh, no, not really. I don't think, you know, we don't, we're not really a target for anybody. And, and I think that, um, mindset is still out there in the industry to, to a large part. Um, and again, you know, just thinking of, Hey, I'm, I'm a small practice in enterprise Alabama.
Speaker 1 00:06:42 Nobody's gonna be coming after my data. Well, just think about how many other parties you touch, just running your business vendors, other things like that. So any of those electronic footprints that you have can be compromised at any point in time, and that's gonna impact you. So, um, so you really have to kind of have, you know, some defense up there from that standpoint, um, actually, uh, was mentioned this to, to Russ kind of coming in. I heard some statistics yesterday from the FBI internet crime report that, uh, cyber crime has ascended to a 6.9 billion industry in the United States alone. Um, so, and that's up from about like 4.7, I think, billion and that's billion with a B. So, uh, you know, the statement was made that every single day in the country, not just in healthcare, but in, in the country somewhere a million dollar cyber claim is originating.
Speaker 1 00:07:36 So think about that. Yeah. And think about all the businesses that are out there and, and how much we rely on the interconnectivity, uh, to, to perform our business mean from a healthcare standpoint, you know, you're uploading claims, you know, you're transacting, uh, transactions at the front office there, you know, you're buying supplies online. Um, you know, the, the provider's NPI numbers are out there and pretty easily accessible, you know, for, for the right hackers. So, and then culturally, I think in the environment that we have, unfortunately with, you know, the events that are going around, uh, with Russia and the Ukraine right now, it's only going to, I think, heighten what we're gonna see in terms of the aggressiveness of these foreign, uh, you know, hackers and stuff. And so it, it, cyber now has kind of morphed into a little bit of a two-headed monster.
Speaker 1 00:08:23 You know, you always had the nobody's gonna hack in and get our information, or, you know, and then back in the old day, it's like, well, all that's in paper records, right. They'd have to steal our medical records to do that. Um, so you've kind of still got that animal out there, but the bigger animal that's out there, it really is more, uh, prevalent in the market is really that ransomware standpoint where your business can be shut down. And, uh, regardless of what you are, regardless of what size you are, if you have somebody else and, and, you know, uh, an intrusion happens within your system, somehow, most likely through somebody's clicking on a link thinking they want a free Starbucks gift card or something like that. I mean, it, it happens and you've got to your staff's gotta be vigilant, you know, from that standpoint.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 So there's education training that needs to go on there as well. But, you know, when you get, uh, when, when, when that happens and you're shut down and you can't transact business, and you can't have the records at your disposal to make the clinical decisions that you need to make, uh, there's, you know, some things that, that I've heard recently and, uh, some very large, um, you know, cyber, um, verdicts and, and penalties that have, that have arisen around providers inability to access current clinical data because their organization was under, uh, a cyber event at that time and remediating that. And in the course of doing that, uh, was not able to render, you know, appropriate treatment and ultimately a jury of their peers found them liable for that. So you're seeing it not just extend into cyber. I want to get my data back to there's really physical harm. Right. You know, that's, that's been happening as well as preventing business. So it's, it's one of those things we talk about a lot in terms of evaluating what you need relative to the defenses that you already have in
Speaker 0 00:10:11 Place. So how does that figure into the Cadillac versus the sure,
Speaker 1 00:10:17 Whatever
Speaker 0 00:10:18 Make and model that you're talking about, what, as a practice manager, as someone who's making that investment to get that ROI on that protection, what are some of those policy features that are just down and dirty? I need to know about, because at the end of the day, I'm gonna get that big thick
Speaker 1 00:10:39 Policy
Speaker 0 00:10:40 Policy book.
Speaker 1 00:10:41 Yeah. And it's going on the shelf.
Speaker 0 00:10:42 Right. And I'm thinking about, okay, why do I have a drawn policy right. In there, or drawn coverage or something along those lines, or some, uh, seaboard type of coverage.
Speaker 1 00:10:55 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:10:56 Give, give us some, you know
Speaker 1 00:10:58 Sure.
Speaker 0 00:10:58 Uh, whittled down version of what we need to know.
Speaker 1 00:11:01 Gotcha. So, you know, and I think looking at that and, and kind of understanding how you are positioned, I think I would start really from, uh, what your defenses look like from your it systems, cuz at the end of the day, that's, that's really what you're after. I mean, what, what, what, what are you, how you're protecting your data? Uh, how are you keeping it under locking key? So, um, are you working with a provider from an it standpoint that's aggressively managing your backups? Uh, are they working to test those backups? How quickly can they get them, uh, resurrected, uh, and, and back in process for you to transact daily, uh, information. Um, so I, I think there's a, there's a big hand in glove, uh, piece with that. And there's not an opportunity that I look at from a cyber standpoint where I'm not including the it vendor, uh, or partner or staff that, that, that are part of that organization.
Speaker 1 00:11:50 Um, because a lot of times they're doing the best they can or the best they have access to sometimes. And again, you're gonna see all over the board there. So I can't minimize the investment that you're gonna make in that standpoint, but to kind of highlight well, okay. If I'm making, if I'm spending a lot of money on the it side, well, what do I need to be spending money on cyber insurance, right? You, you really do because it's one of those things where together, we're both chasing an animal that's changing all the time. Um, the threats that we have seen and, and have remediation for in the past, that's a great place to start. Let's, let's make sure the net's closed as tight as we can right. On those to prevent those from happening. But again, something else is gonna happen and we've gotta have access to the right, uh, experts, uh, that are affiliated with, with your cyber coverage there, you know, from a attorney standpoint, the, the, the forensic it guys who are gonna be different in charge of much he heftier rate than your right normal it guys that are gonna kind of go in and help you resurrect things, you know, together from that.
Speaker 1 00:12:52 But then talking about things such as like, um, dependent business income impact, um, you know, if you're shut down and, and, you know, you kind of think back to some of these larger cyber events that we've had, uh, across the country where these large corporations were brought to their needs and not able to use their systems. Um, you gotta think about what's called, uh, dependent business income protection. And so if, if you're not able to transact business on a, on a routine basis, because somebody out there had another cyber event, while it may not really be impacting you, but it's impacting your ability to do business, you need to have an instrument that has coverage that will address that as well, because, and so you just sort of take an, uh, average of, you know, what your monthly, you know, uh, cash flow and, and revenues look like from that standpoint.
Speaker 1 00:13:41 And it allows you to kind of weather that storm, right. For whatever, you know, 2, 3, 6 months, whatever that looks like. Right. So, um, cyber coverage now you're starting to see a lot of carriers that are, um, kind of sharking back on trimming back some of the coverage, cuz there's been so many claims. You've actually got carriers that are dropping it all together. Right. You've got carriers, that'll write everybody, but healthcare. Yeah. And again, you, you know, you need kind of a trusted advocate there. It's kind of what navigating the market to kind of steer you in the right direction. Right. Because just because you've had a policy in place the last few years, uh, doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be gonna offer you a renewal. Yeah. Be because they may have things that are changing from the carrier side. And then you may also not have your systems in place to meet their underwriting criteria that keeps being ratcheted up. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:14:29 As well, you know, that moral hazard type of thing. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> where you have too much in, uh, insurance. You're overcovered if you will. I don't think that, um, uh, you know, a, a practice manager, someone that's a, a business leader, uh, can ever, you know, not have the right coverage, but they need to understand what the, the correct limits are and the right. You know, the parameters there mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, let's change gears for a minute. Sure. More along the practical side, you're not an adjuster. You, you don't adjust, you don't go out and do the claims work,
Speaker 1 00:15:04 Right? Yeah. We, we have, we have internal folks within our agency that kind of spearhead those claims and partnership with the, with the carrier reps that, that will do that actually adjustment process.
Speaker 0 00:15:13 So I know, uh, the various, uh, agents and reps and brokers and people of that nature, you, you take the questions, but you really cannot start to give policy direction and how people should do things and such, um, somebody falls in the, in the clinic parking lot. Mm-hmm for instance, um, when do,
Speaker 1 00:15:36 Are you leasing the space? Do you have the building? <laugh> those, those are the questions we're
Speaker 0 00:15:39 Yeah. Those are all the, well, usually those are under separate LLC. Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:15:44 We may have no liability here whatsoever.
Speaker 0 00:15:45 Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to that on the, uh, on the, on the real estate, uh, podcast, but, uh, along those lines though, something does happen. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, you don't have an immediate, uh, lawsuit or right. Action. When do I get, when do I get my agent involved? No, I get my, my company involved.
Speaker 1 00:16:08 Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's a great question. And, and, and again, the, the, as soon as those events happen, um, and that's really a protection for you as, as the client, as the ultimate insured. Right. Um, so something out of the ordinary, like that happens, even in kind of the situation you just talked about, somebody falls in the parking lot and maybe it's somewhere you are renting. Right. And so that liability is probably not yours because they haven't actually crossed the threshold into your facility to where your liability takes over, you know, getting your, your agent and your carrier involved in that, just in case something, you know, kind of happens. Uh, we actually had a very similar event to that where I've got a client that they're in a POB and they had a, had a little accent there of a patient that was coming to see them.
Speaker 1 00:16:57 So, you know, their thought was okay. They, the only reason they're on this property is to come to their doctor's appointment. So does that start when they get outta their car door, you know, and, and, but go ahead and get your agent involved because you never get DED by any of your insurance companies in terms of how many claims or incidents or events you, you report. Um, and it also is gonna help from an overall risk management standpoint that if you see an issue, start to evolve, Hey, we've had a couple of these things that happened that, okay, really, it wasn't, you know, aren't necessarily our liability, but we need to kind of work together right. With, you know, our, our, um, landlord or whatever in that case. So, um, and, and what I'll tell you too, that I I've had enough conversations from a claim side to where you've got folks that have been a little bit more proactive in that nature of, Hey, we've had an issue.
Speaker 1 00:17:54 Dunno if it's gonna be a claim, but we wanna let y'all know about it. And then a claim actually happens. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that you've established a pattern there that you're sensitive and that you're alert to what's going on and you are aggressively aware of the risk that are going on, whatever that is. Right. And then, so when the claim happens, they're like, okay, this is, this is legit and we need to respond. Right. And these guys have gotta proven track record that they're, you know, gonna be a good risk for us. Right. You know, to kind of continue to ensure.
Speaker 0 00:18:21 Yeah. That's a great point. That's that collaboration mm-hmm <affirmative> piece that continues to occur as far as, um, uh, now you've got sort of exposure and such mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, you, you, you run into all kinds of situations, equipment that breaks or yep. Uh, people tripping and all of that. I think people want to, or, uh, business owners many times want to find every reason for the insurance company to pay mm-hmm,
Speaker 1 00:18:57 <affirmative> sure. You know, that's what you're paying
Speaker 0 00:18:59 For. That's right. I pay them all these years now. I gotta, yeah. Um, again, you want insurance there when you can't control things. Right. As far as the way I look at it, right. Not everything needs to be filed as a claim cuz it's gonna come back from an actuarial standpoint. Sure. Uh, any guidance on those, uh, for those owner business owners. Yeah. Practice managers that are thinking, how do I set my policy of how I function when something like that does happen. Right. Are there certain, you know, limits or baselines, things of that nature that you want to help guide someone
Speaker 1 00:19:38 Like, like that, uh, really kind of two areas come to mind there. Um, and, and really, you know, kind, I, I guess mentally making a shift in, in terms of, um, you know, how you are operating the business that, that, that you're running, um, there's, there's inherent risk in everything we do. Mm-hmm <affirmative> sure. So, um, but how are you insulating yourself, um, and protecting yourself from the risk of running a business and, and for example, uh, depending on how, how big your staff is, let's talk about workers comp, you know, um, in the healthcare, uh, world, we run the gamut from your pediatrics primary care office with very low hazard liability, probably from a worker's comp standpoint to surgery centers, skilled nursing folks where you're, you know, you're lifting patients and you've got other avenues there year round sharps, you know, those types of things.
Speaker 1 00:20:32 So education becomes primary. And so again, it's not always about just, Hey, gimme the cheapest rate I possibly can get, because it's all exactly the same, but it's not all exactly the same. And you've got carriers that are gonna have programs that are customized and tailored to the medical environment. Um, and you've got other carriers that may be a big nationally known powerhouse and insurance, but their medical channel runs very, very shallow, right. Um, but they're very well positioned in construction or whatever. So those are not the ones you want to, you want to deal with. Um, a lot of these companies will tap into their, uh, risk management piece. And so you really kinda have a mindset of being an outsource risk manager from that standpoint, what are, what are some educational, uh, tools that we can provide to our staff that we don't have to go out and source that, that company's, uh, pulling together for you.
Speaker 1 00:21:25 Right. And I think that's kind of a sweet spot where our team has been able to do that because we say it a lot that we, we wanna earn our, uh, our keep and our commission. Mm-hmm <affirmative> 365 days. And not just the day we, we show up with the renewal. Right. You know, because if all I've done is come in and sell you a cheaper piece of paper, I've done you a tremendous disservice. Right. You know, if I've, if I've not brought you tools to make you better on a month by month basis, uh, from a safety education, um, staff engagement, all those talent kind of things. Right. So, um, so workers' comp is, is a big focus for us there. Uh, and also when you kind of flip the flip the coin and you talk about like employment practices, liability mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, that's the EPL EPL.
Speaker 1 00:22:11 I, yeah. So, uh, this is, uh, insurance coverage and access to resources and legal experts that are specifically tailored to employment law and employment transaction. So, you know, you look in the rear view mirror from all the COVID stuff. Um, some of us out in the healthcare world had to make some really, you know, tough choices in terms of furloughing people, right. Or laying people off, or, um, you know, kind of, uh, discontinuing jobs altogether. Yeah. You know, and maybe now we're coming out of that and wow. We really do need a full-time patient transport person on this floor or whatever. Yeah. So how you make those decisions, um, about any kind of employment related issue, uh, terminations, discipline, those kind of things, subject you to some kind of risk that's there, um, you know, E E O C or whatever. Right. So I've always told people that, you know, if there's one piece of coverage that you can buy from me, that's probably the most important, it's probably employment practices liability.
Speaker 1 00:23:10 Yeah. Because you're gonna touch that all the time. That's right. And you're making those decisions and to the best of your ability for vetting people, sometimes it just doesn't work out. Right. Or sometimes something happens, you know, and you made a decision that you thought was in the best interest of everything and okay, now this person's accusing you of something. So, and unfortunately you get into those situations where you got to, you know, prove your innocence. Yeah. You know, and defend yourself and defend, you know, how you made decisions from that standpoint. And that could either come outta your checkbook or that can come outta, you know, your insurer's, uh, pocket pool of money that, that you, that you place from a policy standpoint. So, um, all those kind of policies around the protection of the business from an entity to transact and continue on and operate, I, I think are, are huge and they don't get enough attention. Yeah. And I think sometimes that, you know, we wanna focus in on the big ticket items. It's like, alright, I've gotta have liability coverage. I've gotta have property coverage. I've gotta have mal malpractice. And some of these other coverages that can really jump up and hurt us as business owners and operators don't get the attention and the vetting that they need to. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:24:22 Well, Philip, it's been, uh, great having you with us today and good seeing you again. And, you know, again, it's a, it's a topic that we need to hear. We don't always like to hear. Um, yeah. Sometimes we feel a bit intimidated by again, the book. It is, it is intimidating, all that comes along with it. Mm-hmm um, uh, thanks so much for enlightening us as we, again, just try to maximize and enhance everything that goes on in our practice. Uh it's it's been great to have you here. And, um, thank you so much. We look forward to seeing you again on another topic.
Speaker 1 00:24:58 Absolutely. Jeff, I appreciate it. Yeah. This has been great. Looking forward to coming back again. Good.
Speaker 0 00:25:02 Good. Well, thanks again. Uh, everyone for joining us, uh, with our revenue radio powered by Kaso and company Kaso healthcare solutions, where we enhance the business of medicine, this Jeff dance. And thank you again, and we'll, uh, see you down the road.
Speaker 2 00:25:19 Thank you for tuning in to the CAOU podcast network resources for today's episode are linked in the episode notes. Thank you to our producer Russ Dorsey and for CAOU for powering this podcast. Be sure to stay up to date on new episodes and more information about today's episode by following at CSU co until next time. Thanks for tuning in.
